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"It just seems like everyone's trying to go viral - and trying to go viral is embarrassing".

I don’t really know where to start with this one. When I first spoke to Annie Raewerda (our guest this week) about featuring on Very Fine Day, I figured we’d talk mostly about the massive following she has built around a carefully curated selection of wild Wikipedia wormholes and screenshots. And we did that. Annie is the creator of Depths of Wikipedia, which has big followings on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok.

But we also talked about the apocalypse, neuroscience, and how she ended up living with the assistant of famed influencer / writer / internet person / “scammer” / star of insanely viral profiles, Caroline Calloway. Oh, Annie also has Calloway’s cat now?? It’s a thing.

Which is all to say we hop around a bit. I hit stop on record about four times during the whole thing, as we went back and forth between saying goodbye, only for Annie to pick the ball back up to talk about which country would be best to hide out in should a meteor smash into NYC (the answer is New Zealand).

We also talked about the insane cost of owning a home (neither of us do) and the dwindling importance of Instagram, marred with the constant embarrassment of knowing you probably should create for TikTok, while not wanting anyone to ask you about it.

It was fun to talk – and as we went into the early ours of my morning, I honestly felt like I could have talked longer. Maybe Annie had a terrible time (Annie, if you are reading this, please never tell me if you did). I hope that’s not the case.

Everything alright with you? Drop me a line: brad@veryfineday.co. Tell me how you’re going, or what you think of VFD. You can send hate mail there, too, but all of that only gets printed out for hardcopies in my “internet enemies” scrapbook.

That’s all from me.

See you down the road.

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VFD: I get it, it's early.

Annie Rauwerda: I mean, it shouldn't be. I feel like 8:30 is a normal time to be awake.

VFD: Yeah, I was being polite. The lateness is not okay.

Annie Rauwerda: Hahaha, I've been travelling lately, so I feel like my circadian rhythm is a little bit off.

VFD: Where are you travelling from?

Annie Rauwerda: I went to New York over the weekend. It's the same time zone, so it’s not jetlag, per se, but I slept on the floor of LaGuardia.

VFD: Cool.

Annie Rauwerda: So, like, 24 hours ago, I was waking up in LaGuardia. I didn't have a great night of sleep.

VFD: Not really. No.

Annie Rauwerda: But I spent $25 on the worst blanket of my life. It’s definitely just a piece of fabric. It can't cost more than fifty cents to produce, I'm estimating. Best $25 I’ve ever spent.

VFD: Yeah, I mean, you need creature comforts, right? Especially when you're asleep in an airport.

Annie Rauwerda

How do you want to do this? Do you record it? Do you need a photo? Is it just talking?

VFD: No, this is it. I can ask for some photos afterwards. You don't have to give them to me now. I'm not gonna like, sit here and be like: I need some photos now. It's all good. It's just a conversation, really. It’s nothing too complicated. Is there anything you’re like Do not ask me about that?

Annie Rauwerda: I don't have anything. You can ask me about - I would say - anything. I don't have any huge skeletons in the closet.

VFD: We'll find out I guess. Maybe it's time -

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, maybe it's time to get some!

What time is it for you?

VFD: It is three minutes to 12am.

Annie Rauwerda: Oh, yikes, I’m sorry I'm keeping you up.

VFD: That's alright. I don't really dig on sleep much. If you didn't have to, I wouldn't.

Annie Rauwerda: Oh definitely. The people that wouldn't have to but still would, every night, I don't really think I would like to hang out with them.

VFD: Every night?!

Annie Rauwerda: Occasionally, you would take a nap. Like, I get it. But there's no way I would sleep every night

VFD: Yeah. It's just like, you're missing out.

Annie Rauwerda: It's like: you can't imagine a world where you don't sleep? It's not that hard to imagine.

VFD: It probably says a lot more about the way my brain is broken into having to achieve things, or do things, or not miss out on things. And therefore I tie my self worth to it all. So it's like, well, if I don't sleep, then nothing will skip me.

I was just looking at Twitter this morning and it's always a very weird thing when I do these night interviews because it's like: I watch the real world wake up and experience the day I just experienced. It's like my day didn't really happen. Nothing valuable happened.We don't make the news in Australia, we just respond to it.

Annie Rauwerda: Man, so when a crazy news event happens in the afternoon in Eastern Time you spend all night thinking about it?

VFD: Well, I don't know. We still see it happen. But there's a conscious part of me that's like: Everyone that matters is asleep, or is getting woken up to address this problem.

Annie Rauwerda: I'm not a big writer, I've never taken a writing class. Actually, I took a community college writing class, but it was online and it didn't feel like it counted. But I do write sometimes and I wrote an article for Slate a couple days ago. And I stayed up all night one night and I wrote it. Because I knew if I stopped, I would stop and maybe not pick it up again. I just wanted to get it done because it wasn't really going to be relevant if I let it sit for a long time.

VFD: What was it?

Annie Rauwerda: It's about how you can download Wikipedia on a flash drive. It's only like 87 gigabytes, which is less than a lot of video games.

And how in Russia, the download spikes after the invasion on February 24…

But especially after the Kremlin sent a letter to the Wikimedia Foundation, to Wikimedia Russia, threatening to block it if they didn't change something. Wikipedia was like: We're not going to change something or we're not going to like, censor, this for you. It's still unblocked, but regardless, people were downloading it in droves.

VFD: And just holding the whole Library of Alexandria on a thumb drive.

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, exactly. So I wrote that.

VFD: Well, that's a good segue: Wikipedia! How did… all this start?

Annie Rauwerda: Well, I was sitting in my room, not unlike how I am right here and now, and it was probably exactly two years ago. It was that that time in quarantine where everyone was all gung ho about all the projects they were gonna do.

VFD: Oh, God. This is one of those.

Annie Rauwerda: When people still thought it was gonna be two weeks or a month, or whatever the fuck. Everyone was starting shit, everyone was doing something new. So I was like, Well, I guess this is my thing. I'm going to start posting Wikipedia pages on Instagram. I was surprised it didn't exist. So it wasn't really that crazy of an origin story.

VFD: Do you just spend a lot of time on Wikipedia? Did you beforehand?

Annie Rauwerda: I love Wikipedia. I don't think I edited it very much at the time. Maybe I fixed typos here in there, nothing major. I do think I had an account, but I just like to read it. I get lost in rabbit holes quite a bit. I also thought it felt like a COVID-y, quarantin-y, of the moment thing to do, because I was spending a lot of time online just going from rabbit hole to rabbit hole to rabbit hole.

VFD: Right, spiralling, yeah, healthy stuff.

Annie Rauwerda

Finding out how cottage cheese is made and stuff. Yeah.

VFD: And then it just grew? Gradually or quickly?

Annie Rauwerda: Well, I started it in late May - or late March or early April of 2020 - right around there. And it did not have very many followers for a few months. I posted two or three times a day.

I would also just mass follow people. I tried all these theories for growth. I was like, If I follow everyone that goes to the same high school, they're gonna think that I go to that high school because they're gonna see all their friends follow this person. And then they're going to be so intrigued that this random 300 follower account is followed by all their friends, so they're gonna follow it. Because otherwise they’re not going to follow a random account like that.

VFD: That's not a bad theory, yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: I did play a bit of an imposter game. I infiltrated some high schools in California. That sounds creepy, but it wasn't.

VFD: On the internet, it's totally fine. It was to educate, right?

Annie Rauwerda: Friend groups in Minnesota. What else? I did that. And then I got the attention of Caroline Calloway. Do you know her?

VFD: Who, Caroline Calloway? Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: Well, I have so much to tell you about her. Sorry, this is going to be the worst interview ever. I guess that’s the point.

VFD: Yeah, exactly. Don't worry about it, you don't have to apologise.

Annie Rauwerda: Caroline Calloway noticed me. And that was a big game changer.

VFD: Huge moment.

Annie Rauwerda: But it started out as beef. It was early 2020. And The Cut article went down just before that, like a few months. Maybe it was late 2019 if I remember right, so she was a well known figure. I think she might have slipped from kitchen conversation a little bit, but at the time, she was bigger.

VFD: Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: And her occupation on Wikipedia just said the word nothing. Like Occupation: Nothing. I thought it was funny. Everyone was doing that, everyone was being like: Oh, Caroline Calloway sucks. So I posted it, and then she screenshotted it, put it on her grid, and she'd recently started an OnlyFans and was like: Wow, this just shows that people don’t take sex work seriously. So I was like: Oh my god, I'm so sorry, Caroline, I didn't realise that you were going to see that.

Her Wikipedia article was changed by someone that wasn't even me. It was just changed to say artist. Social media person. Which is true, there's citations for that. And then I posted the new one. I was like: I'm so sorry, Caroline, in reality your occupation is everything or something like that. Then she commented Our beef is over and then shared an obnoxious number of my posts. So many of them. Twenty in a row.

Her Instagram story – you know how sometimes, when there's so many stories, it's just dots so small you can’t even see them?

VFD: Yeah, yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: It was that, but they were all my posts. Woke up the next morning with 4000 new followers. I was like, this is great.

VFD: Okay. All right. Well, Caroline, if you're reading, and you're looking for more story opportunities…

Annie Rauwerda: Also, it would be bad…

I just need to mention that she also gave me a cat.

VFD: Like, physically?

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, physically.

VFD: Like, she came to your house and gave you a cat?

Annie Rauwerda: Um, yeah - hold on let me grab her -

VFD: Whaaaat…

Annie Rauwerda: This is her, she used to live with Caroline, and now she lives with me.

VFD: Wait, so, did you meet her? Did you meet Caroline?

Annie Rauwerda: Oh yeah. We kind of became friends after that.

VFD: Oh, okay.

Annie Rauwerda: Not BFFs just casual friends.

VFD: In New York?

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, I moved to New York at the end of 2020 because my classes were online. And I found a really cheap sublet and a job in New York. So it was great, it was awesome.

While living in New York, Caroline lives there, and she and I hung out a few times. And her assistant became my roommate, because I needed a roommate and her assistant started living with me.

I think how it happened was: I was in line at a boba shop, just doing my own thing, and I got a call from her and she was like: Hey Annie and kind of launched this big explanation about how sometimes cats are bonded pairs but they don't get along. And that was her situation. And that her cats weren't getting along and she wanted to give one to me and Did I want a cat? At the time I agreed I was like… I can do like six months. But it’s gonna be forever.

VFD: And now you're where exactly with the cat?

Annie Rauwerda: Now I live in Michigan.

VFD: Yeah, I think you've got that cat for good. I think that's your cat.

Annie Rauwerda: She's beautiful, too. She's like a, she's definitely like - I don't know. I'm surprised she doesn't have major health issues because she looks like one of those animals that's been bred to just be so cute at the expense of any, you know, health.

VFD: She looks like a ragdoll or something, right?

Annie Rauwerda: She’s from Ukraine, actually. Caroline told me.

VFD: Well, that's probably true.

Annie Rauwerda: I wonder if she knows of wars in her homeland right now.

VFD: You'd hope not.

Annie Rauwerda: Cats don’t know about other countries, probably.

VFD: No. I mean, we wouldn't know. I gotta say, I didn't expect the conversation to pivot this way, but it's good.

Annie Rauwerda: Do you want to bring it back or do you want to stay here?

VFD: No, we can stay here, I'm just like… I don't know where to go.

Annie Rauwerda: I can keep on about cats if you want.

VFD: Okay, so, you became known as a kind of Wikipedia curator, right? Would you say? And not just on Instagram, but Twitter and TikTok too, right?

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah.

VFD: But like you said before - you never did writing or anything like that, and you haven't done any media training - so what is it that you do, I guess? Or do you make like heaps of cash? Is this a very lucrative business that I'm just not seeing?

Annie Rauwerda: No, I’m in school right now. I'm getting a degree from the University of Michigan in neuroscience.

VFD: Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: So my day to day is…

VFD: Neuroscience? What is that, your brain?

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, I'm just memorising a laundry list of receptors and stuff.

VFD: Is that brain science?

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, the brain.

VFD: Why that?

Annie Rauwerda: I do not have a good answer. I got to college and I didn't like humanities classes, because I thought the people in them… They made me annoyed.

VFD: Sure, totally.

Annie Rauwerda: It seemed that a lot of people were taking the intro science classes, going out to college. And I had FOMO because they would talk about how hard it was, but they all were definitely, secretly enjoying the struggle. I wanted to join.

I don't really have a good reason for studying neuroscience. I thought that I could be a health professional if I wanted, like a doctor or physician's assistant type of thing, but I don't think I'll do that. Maybe later.

VFD: What are you gonna do, then?

Annie Rauwerda: Um, hang out? I don't have a good answer. But I'm gonna do this. And I'm gonna do so many things. I don’t know how to describe them.

VFD: Totally.

Annie Rauwerda: Like, it sounds like I'm not going to do anything. But I am going to continue freelance writing. I'm going to continue doing live shows -

VFD: I have to point out for the transcript that you’re counting these out with your fingers.

Annie Rauwerda: I'm gonna do live shows, which I have done before. I’m gonna do a lot more of them.

VFD: What are they? Like, don't describe the concept of a live show. But what is the show?

Annie Rauwerda: I really should go to the Wikipedia for live show…

VFD: Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: Oh, there isn’t one…

It was basically a bunch of people in a room together, and I was at the front. We played some fun trivia games. There's stand up comedy elements, and there were a few guests.

VFD: Is it Wikipedia related? Or is this just like… a thing?

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, it’s called Depths of Wikipedia Live

VFD: Okay, alright, okay.

Annie Rauwerda: I just had one over the weekend, that was why I was in New York. But I've done smaller. This was the first full full show that I did. But I've done sets in a bunch of other shows.

VFD: Did the Wikipedia people know about you? I imagine they do.

Annie Rauwerda: Oh, my gosh, do they ever. I can't believe they like me because they're defending truth every day. And I guess I edit a little bit but for most part I'm just posting like: haha look, there's a city in Austria that's called Fucking, it’s a Fucking City. Stuff that's just so dumb. But no, I think they do like me. I met the entire board of trustees and the CEO two days ago.

VFD: Wow. Yeah, shit.

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, in New York,

VFD: Are they cool?

Annie Rauwerda: They happened to be there for a conference and then one of them posted about it. And it was a guy that I had met at WikiConference North America. I'm not just here for likes, I definitely care about the Wikipedia community and movement. I sound like I'm joking, but I care about it very deeply.

VFD: Why do you smile when you say that?

Annie Rauwerda: I met him at WikiConference North America. He also is so legitimate. He wrote a book about Wikipedia. He's very well known in the Wikipedia community.

VFD: Well you hope so, right? Like, he made it, right? He’s pretty well known.

Annie Rauwerda: There's definitely a hierarchy among editors. It's a very weird dynamic.

VFD: What do you mean?

Annie Rauwerda: Well, there's these certain badges - not even badges - but as a Wikipedia editor you're not doing this for money. People are still finding enough motivation to continue doing this, like, a tonne.

There's some very prolific Wikipedia editors who write a tonne and I don't quite know what motivates them. Whenever I see small errors, I get a little bit annoyed - but then I just feel so empowered, because it's like, I can just change this right now. Why wouldn't I? And then you change it, and then you start looking around and you realise There's so many things in this article that I could improve. Then you improve them and then you start watching that article, and then if anyone else tries to improve it then you make sure that they did a good job. And if someone tries to vandalise it, then it’s on your watch list, so you notice. That's at least what I do.

VFD: How much time would you say you spend doing that? Like, is it your version of looking at an Instagram feed nonstop or something?

Annie Rauwerda: For some people I think that’s what it's like. But no, I don't do it a tonne. Maybe an hour a week, two hours a week.

VFD: Right, so then otherwise, how do you find the stuff?

Annie Rauwerda: I have a few ways…

VFD: It's not a trick question.

Annie Rauwerda: I would say that I have between two and three different methods. But there's a bit of overlap. That's why I don't know if it's two or three.

Me delaying there wasn't just me being dramatic, the wheels were just turning.

One tried and true method is having people do it for me; people just sending in ideas. At this point, that happens a lot. At the beginning it never did - but now people are sending a lot of ideas. The problem is that I've posted quite a few - over 1000 things at this point. So people send me things that I already posted every day. But it's fine, there's also new ideas there too.

The other method is to just go on Reddit and then if anyone mentions anything interesting, see if it's on Wikipedia. You can sort Today I Learned by most upvotes, and then if there's something interesting in there you can see if it's also on Wikipedia.

VFD: Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: And then what else? Oh, if I just stumble upon something - that happens a lot. And then also, there's this list of unusual articles that's already on Wikipedia. I've contributed to it a little bit, but I try not to do it too much. That has thousands of ideas.

VFD: Well, I mean, there's no shortage, right? Do you ever get - not salty or anything - but you’ve created a media empire; a media thing; and a brand. Do you feel like it’s associated with you personally? Do you wish it was, moreso?

Annie Rauwerda: Nobody has ever asked me that.

VFD: Oh, sorry, if that's intrusive.

Annie Rauwerda: No, don’t be. That was a compliment.

I really don’t think anyone’s ever asked me. I don’t feel very salty about it. Like, I love Wikipedia. I’m so happy to be using them. The only thing that is annoying is that I don’t think I’ll ever get verified, because it could be confusing. Because I use the name Wikipedia but I’m not Wikipedia.

So I don’t think I’ll be verified, but I don't expect to be. And I guess that's it.

The good thing about Wikipedia, though, is that it's open source. So I can repurpose it, put it on Twitter, use the logo, use the name, have a depthsofwikipedia live show. I can do all that, I just can't copyright it. So I don't really have intellectual property. But why would I ever have intellectual property on these articles that volunteers wrote? I don't expect that.

Also, I'm not gonna gatekeep Wikipedia. Lately on Twitter there’s been this thing where I’ve been posting on Twitter and I've gained a lot of followers rapidly. So maybe I'm fresh in people's minds. Sorry, that was like bragging. But whenever anyone else posts something from Wikipedia, there will be like 10 replies, like, @depthsofWikipedia!!!

And I always have to go in there and be like, Guys, like, I'm not gonna repost this thing you already saw. And also, I don't own this website. I'm not gonna gatekeep Wikipedia. It’s the encyclopaedia for everyone! Thanks for thinking of me, though.

VFD: What’s Michigan like?

Annie Rauwerda: Oh, it is kind of amazing. It's beautiful, the nature is just exquisite. A lot of good trails. I like mountain biking, there’s a rock climbing gym nearby, I like climbing. There is so much freshwater - which I know isn't really life or death on a day-to-day - basically anywhere where humans are living in the west there's freshwater. But we have so much that you don't ever have to think about droughts. I don't even have to have short showers. There's water coming straight from the Huron River which is pretty nice. I do think that if everything crumbles… Michigan is very cold, but other than that, not a bad place to be.

VFD: Right. I only know it from the Sufjan Stevens stuff. And that stuff’s all pretty y’know…

Annie Rauwerda: I grew up right by Holland.

VFD: Oh, lovely.

Annie Rauwerda: Do you know that song?

VFD: Yeah, yeah. This will turn into a whole other interview if we talk about Sufjan Stevens for too long because I will talk for a long time.

Well, look, we're hitting like 30 minutes. I don't want to hold you for too long into your morning.

Annie Rauwerda: I think that Australia is a good place to be in the apocalypse.

VFD: For a while. Eventually, it all comes here. Water drifts, every current ends up somewhere. It depends what you want, right? Like, the chances are the apocalypse is not going to start in Australia. So would you rather get hit by the apocalypse straight up? Or watch it and just wait, which is kind of what would happen if you were down here. You’d just be like: Oh, okay, so that's not good. I guess I'm waiting for that to happen here, uh, cool. Unless you're talking about some kind of climate apocalypse - in which case we’re screwed.

Annie Rauwerda: I’m thinking maybe a massive disaster like an asteroid hits.

VFD: Oh, right.

Annie Rauwerda: An asteroid that hits all of New York and parts of other places too.

VFD: Yeah. Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda: Like… Europe!

VFD: Whatever, who needs Europe. It'd be alright.

Annie Rauwerda: I think Australia is a great place to be but you just don’t have water.

VFD: We’ve got some water - apparently we don't have Michigan quality water - but we’ve got some water. New Zealand's where you really want to be. New Zealand's where it's at. There's only 2 million people - probably got that wrong as I said it out loud. But there's not many people, and it’s just beautiful. Sounds like Michigan, there’s mountains -

Annie Rauwerda: I’m looking it up. Wow, 5 million people in New Zealand. How many do you think are in Michigan?

VFD: Uh, probably 12.

Annie Rauwerda: 9.9 million people? You're kidding me! I knew New Zealand was small, but this is really shocking.

VFD: Yeah, yeah, it’s just really beautiful. That's where they shot The Lord Of The Rings for a reason, right? So yeah, to answer your question, that's where I'd head in an apocalypse, hands down.

But alright. Thanks again.

Annie Rauwerda: Thank you. Sorry that I made you wait so long. I know my coffee maker was just slow and I couldn't find the beans…

VFD: Don't worry. I was sitting here. I was just staring at myself. I was just getting madder and madder and angrier and angrier. And I was just thinking about how much I hate Wikipedia. Hahahaha. But no, I hope college is good. Is that what you're doing now - to college?

Annie Rauwerda: I'm at the very end, so I don't really spend that much time doing class work or anything.

VFD: Yeah. Yeah.

Annie Rauwerda:I have good grades! I'm not one of those people that got by by the skin of my teeth.

VFD: Well, yeah, you’re studying neuroscience. I assumed you probably have a certain level. Probably pretty smart. I could not…

Annie Rauwerda: I have study habits. I'll put in the time. But right now, I just have easy classes, not that many classes. So I spend most of my time doing other things.

VFD: Drinking water, climbing rocks and stuff like that.

Annie Rauwerda: One thing that's just so tough is that all the fun places to live, they're out of reach. But if you want to you can get like a $50,000 foreclosure in the most random part of the Midwest, and I guess you could fix it up. And I guess that's not that big of a down payment. You could pay that off eventually. It would probably be a fixer upper. And you also probably live somewhere that's random.

VFD: We just need to get enough people to agree to do it. Now this is turning into a cult or commune thing. But I'm just saying if you got enough young people…

Annie Rauwerda: You’re so right. How do we drive up the cost of land as an investment?

VFD: Yeah, maybe you should give Caroline a call.

Annie Rauwerda: Her ancestors founded Sarasota, Florida, apparently.

VFD: What? Did they? Yeah, okay…

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah. Because she’s an old money person.

VFD: Is she actually? Like, isn't her whole thing... I honestly, I kind of assumed her whole thing was like… not…

I like to fluctuate between being like, smartest girl in the world. Or like, absolute con in the nicest way possible. I'm like: Oh, she's playing a game. And she's nailed it. Or like, She's just lying heaps and it's not gone wrong. In which case, keep doing it, I guess.

Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, I don't quite know. But I do believe somewhere down the line, in her ancestry, there were some Sarasota founders. I believe that part, hahaha.

VFD: Okay, it makes it harder for me to believe when you laugh when you tell me.

[Bonus]

Annie Rauwerda: All this Instagram photo dump bullshit, I don't quite know. I don't know if I like it, I'm not a big photo dumper myself.

VFD: I have on my personal Instagram one photo of me and my dog. So I'm not -

Annie Rauwerda: That’s what you gotta do. Do you post stories though?

VFD: Well, I do but only dumb shit.

Annie Rauwerda: See I think that you've hacked it because the grid is nothing.

VFD: Well, I hacked it out of pain, right? How old are you? Can I ask that? Don't tell me if you don't want to.

Annie Rauwerda: Oh, that makes him feel like I should lie. I'm 22.

VFD: Okay. I'm 29, and I had Instagram for 10 years. Basically since it was a thing, right? And so my Instagram was just the worst. It’s the same reason I deleted my Facebook. It was just a history of the worst mistakes and things and moments in my adolescence and life, the whole way through, in photo form. And then I went and worked in media, where all of those things become a lot more damaging. And I was just like: This isn't good. I don't know how publicly available my personal life should be. So I just deleted it all. Which is actually not easy. They make it quite hard for you, it's quite laborious.

Not to talk about how impressive I am for going through that but whatever. It's no big deal. But I don't really get Instagram. I much prefer TikTok, but then I feel bad for liking TikTok because everyone's like, fuck TikTok, and I'm like: it's fun. It's just kind of fun. Can’t people have fun?

Annie Rauwerda: Do you think people are more mad about TikTok than Instagram? People hate Instagram.

VFD: I think people hate Instagram, but they have accepted it. Whereas the TikTok stuff, there's still a guilt in enjoying it. And being involved in it. Right?

Annie Rauwerda: Do you make TikToks? Because making TikToks is the most embarrassing thing that can be done.

VFD: I do, yeah, it is.

Annie Rauwerda: Well, I don’t know about you…

VFD: I feel the same way. But I also enjoy doing it. And also we have to do it for my work. So that's what I tell myself. I'm like, well, I get paid to do this. But I don’t know, I think that'll become less embarrassing as more people do it.

Annie Rauwerda: I just think that with Instagram you're posting for your friends. And you know that. But for TikTok, it just seems like everyone's trying to go viral and trying to go viral is embarrassing.

VFD: It is, you're right. But the barrier to achieving that, which can possibly result in short term gain, money, whatever, fame. It gets thinner and thinner, right? Like… you've experienced that.

Annie Rauwerda: I'm so with you. I still post on TikTok all the time, even though it's mortifying.

VFD: Well, it doesn't seem mortifying. I've seen them, like -

Annie Rauwerda: Oh, my god.

VFD: No big deal, but I did watch them. Like, I did fucking Google you. I wasn’t just like: Well, gonna talk to this Annie…

Annie Rauwerda: Anything that involves hearing my voice - I had a podcast briefly. If anyone's like, I listen to your podcast, I wildly shrivel up. TikTok also makes me feel embarrassed. If someone’s like I watched your TikTok, I'll be like Nooo!

VFD: Oh, yeah, same for real.

Annie Rauwerda: I haven't seen your TikToks.

VFD: Good.

Annie Rauwerda: You don't have to be embarrassed, though.

Very Fine Day

Very Fine Day #55: Annie Rauwerda